Acura Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Hi guys I received an email from our MAs last week saying a new legislation has been passed regarding legionella risk assessments, and as LLs we are required by law to carry out annual tests on each property. I've googles but can't find any info on this. Have you guys been informed too? They (the MAs) can do it for us at a cost of £120 per property. Expensive, much?! Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 As far as I am aware no such legislation has been passed now or in the past but it might be coming in the future for an HMO........(Multiple Occupancy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acura Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 As far as I am aware no such legislation has been passed now or in the past but it might be coming in the future for an HMO........(Multiple Occupancy) Thanks for your reply Melboy. This is what they sent me ... Dear Sir/ Madam RE: Legionella Risk Assessments are now required in rented properties. We would like to draw your attention to recent changes in Health and Safety legislation concerning Legionella. The Health and Safety Executive have published both a Code of Practice and Technical guidance on Legionnaires disease, which now brings rented domestic properties into the regulations. This means that as a Landlord of rented properties you now have a legal responsibility for carrying out a Legionella Risk Assessment in order to meet the requirements of this code of practice. In the event of a Legionella incident, this Risk Assessment will provide evidence that you have complied with the HSE recommendations. To assist you in this area, we have been busy researching providers and negotiating the best rates for our customers. We have secured a service with Vibrant Energy Matters, who are specialist service providers to the Property Industry. Our Legionella Risk Assessment Service will cost £120 including Vat. You are free to research costs and instruct a different risk assessor if you wish, however, we do remind you that this risk assessment is a requirement by law and the responsibility for the safety of the tenant at the property lies with you, the Landlord. [Management Agent] does not accept any liability in the case of any issue arising from non-compliance in this area. If you already have a Legionella Risk Assessment for the property or plan on using a different provider, please forward a copy of the risk assessment for our files. We have included further information which should answer the majority of queries, or alternatively you can contact me to discuss this further. Yours sincerely Property Services Manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 http://rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/legionnaires_disease.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acura Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Thanks Melboy. Very helpful. Appreciate your replies and the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Well it looks like another piece of legislation that I need to carry out. Where does it all end? I wasn't even remotely aware of this. Anyone else care to comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acura Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Well I'm glad I was able to bring it to your attention, but feel the same way about it as you. I read the email with a huge sigh - yet another stipulation and legislation to deal with. To quote you - where does it end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Do landlords need to employ a consultant or undertake sampling tests? For straight forward residential accommodation the answer to this should be "no" as long as landlords are reasonably knowledgeable and competent. Sometimes agents and consultants tell landlords that they need to employ a consultant to conduct an annual check or even to have sampling undertaken. HSE guidance indicates that normally this will not be necessary. However, if a block of flats are involved, unless each flat has its own self-contained hot and cold water system, a more comprehensive risk assessment may be needed. Well, I shall be doing my own! I am not happy with the standard of some of the questions to be answered on the review sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Thanks Melboy. I didn't know anything about it......I'm wondering if my agents know, I'll mention it to them tomorrow. It doesn't look like much of a problem......just a few simple checks, fill in a form and give an info sheet to the tenants. If it all gets to much for any of you I can always do yours for £50 a property (+ travel expenses) just let me know. I'm more concerned about my holiday home in Spain......sounds like I'm NOT doing any of the things I should be there to avoid problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I have printed off the forms as listed for my properties and I shall tie the certification in with the annual gas check. I regard my Son as the most competent person to check water temperatures etc. If you look at the requirements expected of the landlord to carry out the work..... let's face it, a trained Monkey with one eye could carry these checks out. £120? they are having a laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 For 99% of us the only thing that is likely to trip us up/ cause a problem is the need to have a 'tight' fitting lid on the cold water storage tank. I do know that some of mine might not be a tight fit but making sure they are either clipped into place or making a small modification to ensure they are is not a big problem. Most of my properties are electric only, with immersion heaters providing hot water. Therefore hot water temperatures are controlled by the heating element. New elements for many years now, by law, are preset to 60 deg C so no work to do on any of those. The rest is just common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 All new to me also. Before I get excited about this added bureaucracy I would have interest to understand how many incidents have been recorded over a given period to cause the concern. I'm sure there will be a bureaucrat, or Eueauocrat out there that would happily make a serious example out of such as myself for being a neglectful LL, who will have insurance in place should there be a claim for an occurrence, but often an over reaction to a negligible number of incidents deserves no response. List of Legionnaires' disease outbreaks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Actually it seems from a brief read here that we have greater risk from our windscreen wash systems, although the additive in mine already will have taken care of that. But as all those other selfish drivers with pure water might well be causing contaminated droplets to be traveling up to 6km should I question the intelligence of going out without a face mask on? Bloody 'ell I've just done a risk assessment already. Then in 1/2 a second I did the rest. Those properties with central heating are a sealed system, no header tank = no risk, apart from the bowl of warm water left with dishes in all day. Flats, all electric, header tank behind a screwed on panel = no risk, apart from same system of bowl water. I haven't yet researched which department I should send my formal risk assessments to for their records. Maybe if we all did this on mass they might then recognise the stupidity of this, but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 This is most interesting and thanks to Acura for bringing it to attention. The list of H&SE checks and measures are long-standing good practice and look very simple to apply by a competent landlord - no need to rush off to find (and pay) a consultant. Cor makes an important point about Risk Assessments and probability. I have had a number of cases recently in various walks of life where effort becomes over-expended in eliminating hazards, when all that may be necessary is an assessment of probability i.e. likelihood. If the probability is small to negligible (look at the history) then the risk (=function of hazard severity X level of likelihood) may be very low, irrespective of the hazard. A bit of common sense and application of good practice is all that I would think should be necessary. Insurance companies may like to see something on landlord's inspection record to this effect - entitled 'Risk Assessment'. By the way - Energy Saving Trust recommend not to run hot water thermostats below 60degC for this reason, although expending more heat. Modern HW systems may be fitted with automatic hot/cold mixer valve to reduce temperature to safe 38degC level at user tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Has anyone else carried out these Legionella Risk Assessments yet ? I'll be starting mine very soon ....I've decided its a good opportunity to do it at the same time as my annual electrical checks. Just wondered about other peoples experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yes RL I am all ready to go with it, I am going to do it with my annual gas checks which come up at the end of the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thanks guys for reminder on this one! (I have just re-read my own contribution.) I will have an opportunity to check this out with my tenants in next few days. Has anyone noticed the difference between Acura's letter received from his MA (post 01/12/14 - 4:17pm) and the advice on RLA site through Melboy's link.(post 01/12/14 - 4:39pm)? Unless I am mistaken the MA letter to Acura has the word 'legal' added. Is this correct? Otherwise if no legislation, doesn't this make the letter a potential scam by MA? It is good common sense to do risk assessments regarding all sorts of potential hazards for property and items used by others, especially when charged (rent) for doing so, but let's not get carried away on matters not specifically defined by legislation. For a risk to be significant it has to have a probability as well as a hazard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Don't get hung up on the nuances of the English language in order to talk yourself out of this. * regulation = implies a prescribed rule. * legislation = collective laws. This is a MUST do for landlords, its not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carryon Regardless Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 When one of my T's gets Legionaries then I'll do one, I wish the legislators would do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 The H&SE 'bible' including legislation, regulations, and risk assessment guidance for wide range of buildings and their water systems on this subject can be read here. It is very clearly written and well illustrated with diagrams etc.of most types of water system. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg274part2.pdf It has sections on example of 'Low Risk' properties (Page 28 box 2.2 - would cover most tenancies I would think), explanatory points about systems with mixer valves before delivery (e.g. showers) where outlet temperature* could confusingly fall within the legionella concern range of between 25deg and 60deg, and responsibilities of landlords, tenants, and managing agents etc. etc. (*Mixer valve temperature might confuse measurements to be checked on RLA Risk Form) Personally I conclude, from a quick read of applicable sections, that provided stored water temperature is above or below the concern range, and entire capacity drawn off regularly (preferably daily) the risk of legionella at a tenancy is low, but please do not take my word for it. H&SE e.g. advises a good idea to run off a tank-full of water immediately before a new tenancy commences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuttall Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Good Morning All, I hope everyone is well. I have come across your forum regarding Legionella Risk Assessments for Landlords, my names Anneka and I work for GES Water, we're a water hygiene company who specialise in Legionella Control. I have copied a couple of links from the HSE's website where it clearly states the requirements of Landlords - http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/& http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm. We as a company carry out Legionella Risk Assessments on a daily basis and work alongside a lot of Letting Agencies with their rented accommodation, please get in touch if you want to discuss anything in more detail or even if you want organise GES Water coming out to carry out a Legionella Risk Assessment. Kindest Regards, Anneka Nuttall dd: 01844 299868 m: 07825 137823 t: 01844 299499 f: 01844 299488 e: anuttall@ges-water.co.uk w: www.ges-water.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks for the information Anneka it may be helpfull for some BUT, you only have to look to see what is happening in some of the other areas where there are mandatory requirements:- * EPC certs.....lots of landlords don't bother. * Electrical safety......lots of landlords don't bother doing checks. I suspect that with regard to Legionella the vast majority of landlords will do what they do best i.e. nothing. This will result in nothing happening as the system isn't being policed adequately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuttall Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hello, That's not a problem at all. I completely take on board what you are saying, to be completely honest with you in regards to Landlords being checked for Legionella Risk Assessments it doesn't happen but if someone was to catch Legionnaires disease in a property they rented which didn’t have a Legionella Risk assessment which by Law is required then there would be an investigation into this. It may be of some benefit to yourself and others on this forum to attend a training/information day with myself, I would be able to advise you of responsibilities, what legionella is, what you should look out for and what a risk assessment entails as you are able to do a Legionella Risk Assessment for your property yourself, as long as you are looking at and recording the correct information. This way you would dodge the cost of a risk assessment but still be complying with the legislations. As I'm sure you're aware there would be a cost involved in me doing this but it would be a one off cost and as long as there were a few of you that would like to attend it would be cost effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Anneka, Out of interest what do you (GES Water) charge (approximately) for a Legionella Risk Assessment for a single 2 bed 1 bathroom property with pressurised hot water system having integral storage tank over hot cylinder (Fig 2.3 of H&SE Guidance referred to)? Midlands area. I was going to either do it myself shortly, or have incorporated into contracted annual gas check/ hot water homecare service (it may be anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 We have just completed our legionella risk assessments on our properties this week. We carried them out at the same time as our regular 3 month inspections. Surprisingly it identified that 1 property didn't have a cover on the cold water storage tank which will need sorting out fast. Completed the questionnaires for each property and gave the tenants the information sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Yes I have completed one property last month and I shall do another one next week on the annual gas boiler service. Who better than a Plumber to test the water systems in accordance with the required procedure and sign the document which is very straightforward and easy to complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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