mad_maz Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Hi all I would really appreciate some advice if anyone can offer it. I have had a few problems with a tenant and was in the process of issuing two months notice to her, when out of courtesy I contacted her Mother (a friend of mine) to let her know. It transpires that my tenant (a single mother of a baby) was sentenced to 6 months in prison last week. Her brother has moved into the flat that she rents from me, with the intention of looking after the baby. How do I go about giving her notice, and am I allowed to? What can I do about her brother, who in effect is squatting(?) I have a tenant lined up for this property already so want it vacant. Thank you Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Even if they are in prison they still have a legal tenancy though there could be a argument the tenancy has become a non-housing act one as it isn't their main home anymore. You have to treat it as they are still living there and serve on the normal notices such as s21 and or s8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Thank you for the reply. Where do I serve the notice to? Prison, or the property address? Any suggestions for getting the brother to leave? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 Social Services would want to know about the baby arrangement as well. It is not an automatic right of a family member to take charge of a minor in these circumstances. In most cases the baby joins the Mother in the prison unless there are very good reasons not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 Agree with Mel about the social service thing an it does sound fishy to me. Knowing she was going to prison SS would have stepped in promptly. This could be an excuse for brother to take over the flat - evict her via section 21 or section 8 asap. You need to gain possession - don't go soft on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted November 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Quick update to this post. The baby was taken into care by Social Services. The brother & his girlfriend left the flat. The tenant is back in the flat and is really p****d that I have issued notice to her. She stopped paying rent so is now more than 2 months in arrears. Her date to vacate is early December though I am pretty sure she will not go and I am seriously concerned about what sort of state the flat will be in when she is finally evicted. I am told that police are monitoring the flat as drugs are being dealt and that it is being used for people on the run. The moral of this tale is never to let to friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlist Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 The moral of this tale is never to let to friends Agreed.....and if you really want to reduce the risk of it going Pete Tong :- * Or single mums. * Or people with babies. * Or people who don't work full time. * Or people in receipt of benefits. and I would guess that she is all of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 As soon as you get the possession order Maz consider getting in the High Court Enforcer - costs more but you get instant possession. See channel 5 Weds 9pm programme 'Pay or we take it away' just gone and which we were commenting on. Don't let to these people - they stuff their own lives up so don't let them ruin yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted December 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thank you for the help The date for the tenant to vacate has arrived and she has basically refused to leave saying that CAB told her that we do not have grounds to evict her. We issued a section 21A with the intention of using the 'accelerated possession' route, though we could have issued a section 8 (because of rent arrears and terms of agreement being broken). My head is spinning from looking through web pages and posts, so I would like to apply for the 'accelerated possession' online, but how and when do I engage the High Court Enforcer? Thank you in advance Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 You have to get a court hearing via the s21 or s8 route first and ask for the possession order (if/when granted by the judge) to be transferred to the high court. I think you then contact a high court enforcement company to do their thing. I think the costs are in the region of 1k but you have to weight that cost against lost rent waiting for a normal county court bailiff which if the waiting time is a month and the rent is 1k pcm the costs would be similar. I stand to be corrected on the above as I haven't had to use a HCEO as my county court bailiffs don't normally take longer than 3 weeks. Though I do have a court case this week which should (if all goes to plan) give a possession order on xmas eve so I suspect if they don't move out then the CC Bailiff will take a bit longer due the xmas break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Don't bother with Section 8 as tenant can argue a case. Section 21 when issued correctly guarantees possession on a 'no fault' basis which means you do not have to give reasons why you want the property back. Go the the hearing if one is called and ask the judge for an order to employ the HCE. An order is a piece of paper giving you directions - in this case to get the HCE in. Tell the judge why you want this. If he agrees you get the order if not then you will have to use the court bailiff - a bit slower and a fee of £105 (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 The date for the tenant to vacate has arrived and she has basically refused to leave saying that CAB told her that we do not have grounds to evict her. Typical CAB advice but you will probably find that that the tenant has misunderstood what the CAB advisor has told her. A separate letter would be next course of action along with the legal paper's putting her right on this advice. Imagine a landlord's life if there was no possibility of evicting a bad tenant? Chaos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Mad maz - have you got a section 21 possession order? Is that the exit date you are referring to? If so tell the council you have this date (if she is on HB) and see what the wait time is for the court bailiff if she does not leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Hello The date I was referring to is the date of the 2 months notice that we gave her. I need to apply online for the possession order but I am nervous of getting it wrong. I contacted the bailiffs office yesterday to see what their waiting times are, and they replied with several documents to read through, one of which is an example letter that shows the waiting time for bailiffs as 6 to 8 weeks. I issued her with a section 21A giving two months notice and in a covering letter stated reasons why I was giving her notice. I only found out afterwards that I didn't need to give reasons. Will this go against me? There ought to be an easy to use guide for Landlords setting out step by step instructions for repossessing their property I have been a landlord since 1997 and have only needed to evict tenants once, and a very nice man from the local council sorted out the paperwork. He has now been made redundant (cost cutting) and the person that has replaced him is far from helpful and doesn't have the same level of experience. Very stressed... Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 The 'accelerated' route is Section 8 because it can be actioned quickly in cases of 2 months rent arrears. With Section 21 you have to wait the notice period out. So is your Section 21 valid? What date did tenancy start and for how long? Was deposit paid, was it protected within 28 days of taking and was PI issued? What date did you issue the section 21. How did you serve it on the tenant? Did you get proof of posting or a witness to it or take a selfy posting it through the letterbox? We need to know all these things and so will the judge if you apply for a possession order. Cost of application is £175 so you need to get it right. No, giving reasons for wanting possession will not count against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 The tenancy started on 8th December 2012 and was on a 6 month AST, after which it became a periodic tenancy. No deposit was taken (not sure what you mean by PI) Section 21A was issued on 25th September 2014 to end after the 7th December One copy sent by Royal Mail 'first class signed for' to prison where tenant was one copy delivered by hand to the property and signed for by tenants brother I have just prepared all of the paperwork to take to the court tomorrow, so any advice will still be appreciated. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 All that looks OK. PI stands for Prescriptive Information and has to be issued within 28 days of protection of the deposit but you didn't take one - so no worries there. It helps I think to have everything in at least size 16 font. Judges are often old and crochety and the paperwork they have is usually a mess so you may need to hand over your own copies if J can't find his one. Be calm and don't talk too much - not all judges can multi-task. Judge usually wears a suit and you sit in a room across a table. Good luck with all that - let us know all the details after - it helps others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 UPDATE The documents submitted to the court were all in order and we have waited the 14 days to see if the tenant would dispute, which she hasn't (actually waited for longer to factor in the holidays over Christmas). We are about to send the request for a possession order back to the court, is it at this stage that we include a letter to the judge asking if it can be transferred to the HCE, or do we have to wait for the possession order to come back to us from the judge first? Any help as always much appreciated. Thank you Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortitia Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 When you send the request for the possession order (Form N5B) with your £280 fee I expect the judge will want a hearing to establish why you want to go down the HCE route. At the hearing you ask the judge for an order to apply to the High Court for the attendance of the HCE. He can agree or deny your application and may make a further charge. If he agrees you then apply to the High Court with another fee and hopefully that is granted then you get the HCE in. Several steps in all this. I would check the cost of the HCE before you go any further as it is substantial and not just a couple of hundred quid but if you are that desperate and the figures stack up then go for it and let us know how you get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Report Mortitia Thank you very much for the additional advice. I will be sure to post any updates. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted March 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 Well, the judge didn't request a hearing and notified us that the tenant should be out on 31st January. On that date we went to the property and lo and behold the tenant was still there, refusing to leave and saying that she hadn't received anything from the court. We walked away before the situation became heated and I contacted the bailiffs office (rather than the HCE) and the bailiff is meeting us at the property on the 13th of this month. The tenant has contacted us saying that she needs more time to find somewhere else, and can't face losing her belongings for sentimental reasons. We have offered to store them in a garage, short term, but we think she was just trying it on again (as the story about having cancer didn't sway us). She wants to know when the bailiff will be going there. Do we tell her? Should the bailiff have contacted her? Shouldn't it be a surprise so that the tenant can't conveniently be out, or worse still have undesirable friends there? I will be so glad when this is over. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampa Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I would be very careful about entering into too much dialog with the tenant.You could just sent the tenant a copy of the official letter stating when the bailiff is going to visit and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melboy Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes I was thinking that Grampa..............no contact with the tenant and tell them when the bailiff's are coming and that it would be in their own interest to have left the property prior to that visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted March 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Thank you. I have done as you recommend - given her date & time, no other dialogue. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_maz Posted March 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Well, the bailiff met my hubby at the property and used the keys to open the front door. The tenant was nowhere to be seen but ALL of her belongings are there, and we're talking everything: clothes, photographs, paperwork, furniture etc. How long are we expected to store her things? The bailiff told my hubby to 'chuck it out' but I'm not sure we can do that. We do not have anything in our tenancy agreements to cover this, as we have never encountered it before. Thank you in advance Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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