Tenants have moved out without telling anyone.

[Mortitia]

The reason the agent is making you wait is so that he gets his bunce for as long as there is a live tenancy even though rent is not being paid.

Never let on a 12 month contract. There is nothing wrong with and 6 month AST - either let it go periodic or issue a new AST.

You are being manipulated by your agent and Richlist is quite right the whole situation is ridiculous.

[Richlist]

I've had a few situations over the years where tenants want to terminate a tenancy agreement part way through the fixed term and I wouldn't dream of saying no or trying to stop them. If tenants want to leave then thats exactly what they will do wether the landlord agrees with it or not and its of no consequence wether you feel you have a 'right' to refuse. I usually manage to negotiate an exit fee for them to pay, which varies, depending on the circumstances & type of property and it always seems to be an easy, no hassle way of reaching an agreement. Tenancy agreements normally run full term & beyond but when occasionally tenants want to leave taking a hard nosed approach, as you have, will usually backfire.

I've already suggested what I would do in your current situation so I have no more to add.

[chickpea]

6 more viewings booked for this week, so we have decided to simply ask for the tenant to sign a surrender and pay the re- letting fee.

We are also going to have the house valued with a view to selling.

[Carryon Regardless]

Viewings for a property that's advertised as available in 5 months, that's surprising.

So after advertising it's future availability the A tells interested parties it's available now, and without the property actually being returned to your possession.

I would expect your present T to view that he's off the hook when his mate reports back as to what the A told him at the viewing.

I've done as RL previously and negotiated the T release, as a fee if you like. I've gained a bonus that way when the property has been re let shortly after. But there was risk there would be a void.

My vote is to get the surrender and later sue for your losses, no surrender and you need to go through the courts for repossession, how else ?

When there are 1 month and 1 day of arrears of course.

[chickpea]

LA phoned this morning, saying they had a couple desperate to rent the house, after they missed out the last time it was on the market and they could move in straight away - was I happy for them to go ahead with references?

Yet again, I asked them how new tenants could possibly be signed up when the currant tenancy was still running and requested that we have a signed surrender from the current tenant, agreeing a date for check out, key hand over etc. LA replied, "I think that's taking this into an area it doesn't need to go."

I repeated that we will not enter into a new tenancy agreement without one, and since it was clear that the property was attracting a lot of interest, we were happy to wait.

Something is definitely going on with the LA - why do I think that there's something we haven't been told??

[Richlist]

I think YOU need to take control of this situation. The agents work for you not vice versa.

This is how it works......you tell the agent what you want and they scurry off and carry out your requirements, quickly & efficiently. Otherwise, what are you paying them for ? Don't get fobbed off, just tell them what you want & when you want it, don't accept excuses.

Good luck.

[chickpea]

I think YOU need to take control of this situation. The agents work for you not vice versa.

This is how it works......you tell the agent what you want and they scurry off and carry out your requirements, quickly & efficiently. Otherwise, what are you paying them for ? Don't get fobbed off, just tell them what you want & when you want it, don't accept excuses.

Good luck.

Just sent a stiff email doing exactly that, Richlist

. It says that we want a surrender signed and agreed by both parties, which ends the tenancy on the final day of this rental month, states that the tenant is liable for the re-letting fee and states a date for check out and hand over of keys. It also says that we will not proceed with any new tenancy application until this has been done, and refusal by the current tenant to sign the surrender will be considered an agreement to continue with the current AST for the remainder of the term.

Let's see what the response is...

[chickpea]

LA has replied.

He is STILL insisting that the way he handles such issues is to get a new tenant to sign an AST and THEN get the old tenant to surrender the tenancy.

Quote: "this is how I've always done it and I've never had any problem and don't expect any this time either."

Obviously he is an idiot and we won't be doing this.

[Carryon Regardless]

An A that would have two tenancies running simultaneously wouldn't be my A.

He is dangerous, and willing to gamble at your possible expence.

[Richlist]

I'd say, if thats the way he wants to operate then he's forfeited his chance of dealing with your rental property. Sack him.

Here's a simple surrender document.....amend details as reqired......go see the tenant and get them to sign it.

SURRENDER OF TENANCY DATE:....................

1. Particulars

The Landlord: xxxxx

Of: xxxxxx

The Tenant: xxxxxxx

The Property: xxxxxxx

The Tenancy: Periodic Tenancy Agreement

An assured shorthold tenancy of the property created by a Tenancy Agreement dated 11th September 2010, which changed into a Periodic Tenancy Agreement on the 11th September 2011 automatically at the end of the fixed twelve months term agreement made between The Landlord and The Tenant.

2. Surrender and Acceptance

The tenant surrenders and releases to the Landlord all his interest in the property with vacant possession and the Landlord accepts this surrender.

3. Release

The landlord confirms that all rent due under the tenancy to date has been paid and that no further payments, whether in respect of rent or otherwise, are due.

4. Effect

The provisions of this agreement (other than those contained in this clause) shall not have any effect until this agreement has been dated. This agreement has been entered into by the parties on the day and year entered at the top and bottom of this document.

Signed by the Landlord: ………………..….…………………………………………

Signed by the Tenant: ………………….……………………………………………..

Date

Where's Grampa......he's usually a big help in these situations.

[Carryon Regardless]

RL as you know I have a similar style of document.

I have been confused as to the description of 'Deed of Surrender' as has been used here. A T can surrender formally or informally. In fact often I have found it necessary to 'assume' surrender following the abandonment procedures. To be a deed I believe there should be witness involved, and this is more than I believe to be required.

Your point 3. is something I don't include. In fact I would feel myself lucky to be any where near that situation at regaining possession. Also a vacant inspection would be required prior to my confirming such, but maybe this is your design anyway.

My preferred style, within the document that they receive when I become aware that they are on their way, is to remind them of their responsibilities. The implication being that when they have surrendered they then have less to be responsible for. Without this element of fear / incentive most would care less, leaving me having to take the risk of repossessing without their 'consent'.

I also ask for name and contact details of current utility providers. As these seem to change as often as their mobile phone numbers (often the only form of contact I have).

[Richlist]

Your point 3. is something I don't include. In fact I would feel myself lucky to be any where near that situation at regaining possession. Also a vacant inspection would be required prior to my confirming such, but maybe this is your design anyway.

Yes I'm aware that different situations exist, thats why I said..amend as required. If there is rent owed or you are expecting additional payments delete that part completely. The point is that the wording of a surrender document is quite a simple affair.....just a few words making it clear that the tenant HAS surrendered the tenancy....which is the primary requirement for Tracey.

[chickpea]

Thanks very much for the template, Richlist - extremely helpful.

Can I ask - we had thought we'd let the T leave without any further charges, now that the rent us up to date. However, what would be a reasonable charge in return for releasing them 5 months early? One months rent in lieu of notice - or is that just being arsey?

Should we just be glad to have got the property back and learn a hard lesson from the experience?

While I understand what Richlist says about not being so immovable about early release in future, the fact remains that the T's have behaved badly and caused us an unnecessary headache over this.

[Carryon Regardless]

Aside from taking a G'tor, I don't follow the RGI route, I don't see what learnings can help when these type of T's are out to do the dirty.

I seriously question your LA attitude to this and where it comes from though. Common sense should dictate that you don not have two current tenancies at the risk of the responsibility to house two families.

How much to let 'em off?

One month being arsey, no that's being generous.

The headache is just emotion, we might sympathise but you can't put that in the bank.

Your problem is the lack of opportunity to negotiate, Your LA is bloody useless so you can't rely on him to do it. Without a negotiated settlement it seems to me you must consider suing for your losses when they can be quantified. I'm not sure on what principle the re-letting costs can be applied here as that would be a cost one day anyway.

[Richlist]

In my opinion the opportunity to negotiate has passed....the tenants have already gone. CoR is right, most of your 'headache' has been emotional (& your personal time/ effort) & not financial. Remember, when tenants leave early most of the extra work / costs would be incurred anyway, at some point in the future. Virtually all of the costs incurred are tax deductable & that helps.

I always try to make the situation as smooth and stress free as possible when it happens to me. In your case I would just get the tenants to sign a surrender. You can recover the property, sort it out and get it relet quickly as you have had lots of interest and I think I'd be inclined to find another lettings agent.

Make sure you get RGI or a guarantor next time and be very, very selective when picking your tenants.

This situation is likely to happen to virtually every landlord at some point. As I let to a lot of tenants who are in my area working on a contract, occasionally they have to move to a different area and either terminate a fixed contract or are unable to give sufficient notice. I try to be flexible and accomodating whilst not ending up to much out of pocket.

Good luck.

[chickpea]

So, I think I now understand what exactly has gone on here - and why the LA don't want a surrender before a new tenancy is signed up. (call me a conspiracy theorist if you like!)

Of course, if we go along their proposed route, we'll have inadvertently lumbered ourselves with the LA for as long as the new tenants stay in the property. However, if we get a surrender now, we're free to tell them to take a hike and go elsewhere.

I'm almost certain that's why they insisted on the "pretence" of re-let viewings as a way of getting permission to access the property, rather than the far simpler request that the landlord/plumber/gas man needs to inspect.

The property is on Rightmove for re-let from the end of July, yet they're showing tenants who are ready to move in asap.

So far, we've been offered a couple with a dog (both of whom work full time), a couple with a puppy, and a tattooed lesbian couple with a baby - and the LA has the cheek to say, "It's quality not quantity", when I say that we intend to take our time selecting a new tenant, since the house is clearly popular and we will have a fair few applicants to choose from!

How do we deal with the issue of the deposit whilst getting shot of the agents? Can we ask to attend the check out, to make sure they don't ignore issues which we may choose to dispute?

[Carryon Regardless]

It's your property. Say how you would like it to be.

By now I would be advertising the property myself in an attempt to beat this LA to it.

It does sound like your still allowing the LA to manipulate you.

Is your signature required on the AST?

Could the LA possibly elect to accept a T saying that is within the terms you agreed?

[Melboy]

If the property is that popular then I would be tempted to take control and market it myself and vet the prospective tenant's in person.

In fact I am doing this right now for a property of mine that becomes available on 1st March.

Follow the "Golden Rules" of letting property to tenant's Tracey and you shouldn't go too far wrong and it just can't be any worse than the LA you have in tow right now.

[chickpea]

Hold on to your hats, it gets better...

In a fit of spite, I wrote an email to the lettings agency dealing with the property our tenants have moved into, informing them that our tenants had not had an agreement from us to surrender their AST and had not informed us they were moving out.

Very quickly, a response came from the branch manager, informing me that they had been in discussion with our agent throughout the referencing process and that he had verbally informed them that our tenants were being let out of the AST!

What on earth do we do now?

[Melboy]

Tell the Branch Manager this is not true and it has not been agreed by you at any time.

Have a discussion with your LA and ask him on whose authority he had permission to pass this information?

[chickpea]

Tell the Branch Manager this is not true and it has not been agreed by you at any time.

Have a discussion with your LA and ask him on whose authority he had permission to pass this information?

I'm trying to call the branch manager to find out exactly what has gone on.

Meanwhile, our LA is conveniently out of the office until Monday.

It's not only that our LA has given permission for the tenancy to end, but also that he has lied to us that he has done so. No wonder he's tried to put the frighteners on us by telling us that we have to make the tenant's life as easy as possible and we cannot let the AST run, holding the tenant to the rent, for risk of being taken to court for not mitigating our losses.

I am seriously stunned.

[Richlist]

What on earth do we do now?

Tracey, I'm beginning to find this thread quite frustrating. You've been given some really first class advice from the regulars on here and my suggestion is that you take it on board & go fix your problem in line with that advice. Sometimes being a landlord is a pain in the arse and you just have to go & sort things out. Here's a summary....

* Get tenants to sign a surrender doc.

* Ditch your agent.

* Get new agents.

* Find new tenants either yourself or thru the new agent.

Unless the property is really bad I'd just refund the tenants their deposit & start again with new tenants and a decent agent..

In case you haven't already seen it......here's my complete list of recommendations:

TENANT SELECTION CRITERIA

Applications from the following people are not acceptable under any circumstances

• Smokers.

• Pet owners (specifically dogs, cats or reptiles).

• Non English speakers.

• Those with resident children.

• Anyone in receipt of housing benefit or LHA.

• Those wanting Company lettings.

• Any letting that would results in overcrowding (eg parents with children in a 1 bedroom flat).

• Anyone running a business or commercial operation directly from the property.

• Applicants who have long lead times to moving in.

Applications from the following people will depend on circumstances

• Non working tenants…..including part time workers, unemployed, those looking for work, university students with/ without working partner are each considered on their own merits.

• Non resident children…..eg single, divorced, separated parent who looks after a child every other weekend may be OK. Would depend primarily on age of children.

• Lettings for less than 6 months…..normally requires higher rent to cover fixed costs.

• Poor references or no references or don’t qualify for RGI…..may require a home owning guarantor or rent period in advance.

• Age under 25......depends on the person, circumstances, maturity, job etc.

* Same sex couples....in my experience it often ends in tears before the end of the fixed term of the AST.

* People from what I would describe as 'Third World' countries eg Indian sub continent & Africa. I've had tenants who have never had a fridge or a proper bathroom or kitchen before. They are not familiar with vacuum cleaners, don't understand condensation & the need to ventillate rooms. They also hate the British winter.....many never having experienced heaters of any kind. My experience is they prefer to sleep on the floor rather than in beds.

* I use extra caution for any application from people outside of Europe & North America

* Anyone who requests anything out of my comfort zone/ my normal way of operating. It doesn't matter what the reason......its likely to make extra work for me and more chance of it going wrong. I stick to what I know.

* Shift Workers.......not an obvious group to avoid BUT when they work all night & sleep all day you try getting hold of them on the phone....its virtually impossible! Its OK if you want to call them at 4.30 am when they get home from work or in the small window of opportunity between when they get out of bed & leave for work in the afternoon, otherwise you'll never get hold of them......best avoid. If you need to carry out repairs on the property thee are more problems with shift workers cos you need to work the nightshift also......obviously not ideal.

The most important thing that any potential landlord can do is choose their tenants very very carefully.

1. Get Referencies.....bank, employer and previous landlord.

2. Take out rent guarantee insurance.....its not expensive.

3. Get a home owning guarantor. Carry out reference checks on the guarantor. Give the guarantor a copy of the AST. Make sure the guarantor document is drawn up as a deed.

4. Don't let to people with pets or children......the risk of them giving you problems are big.

5. Don’t let to anyone under 18 (minors). Draw up your own limits….I prefer nobody under 25.

6. Don't let to smokers........you won't get rid of the smell.

7. Don’t do Company lets.

8. Don’t let to anyone on Housing Benefits.

8a. If you do choose to let to applicants on Housing Benefit CHECK that your mortgage & freeholder (if your property is leasehold) allows it.

9. Don't let to anyone who isn't working full time.

10. Inspect properties every 3 months.

11. Only let initially on a 6 month AST.....that way you can both part company after 6 months if you don't get on.

12. Use a reputable Lettings Agent OR one who has been recommended OR do it yourself (only if you know what to do).

13. Meet your tenants personally. Make sure you ask all the right questions and gauge whether they are right for you.

14. Protect the deposit in one of the official schemes.

14a. If you have a dispute with your tenant(s) over deductions from the deposit remember…..you can either go through the DPS adjudication process OR take the tenant to the Small Claims Court for recovery of your losses where you may have a better chance of success.

15. Issue a section 21 notice as soon as the deposit has been protected.

16. Make sure there is a detailed inventory & schedule of condition……signed by both parties.

17. Remember its a business....so avoid emotion & being overly sympathetic to your tenants.

18. Read as much as you can about renting & letting i.e. educate yourself.

19. Don’t let to anyone who doesn’t speak or understand English.

20. Don’t forget that you will need an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC)…….before you market the property.

21. Don’t forget to get an annual Gas Certificate.

22. You are responsible for ensuring anything electrical in the property is safe so consider getting the electrics checked professionally….and any appliances you provide.

23. Try to avoid having your property classified as an HMO……meeting regulations is expensive and time consuming.

24. Make sure all adults living at the property are on the AST & any other documents.

[chickpea]

Richlist, I think you have missed my point about the info that has come to light - and actually, having now spoken to the other branch manager and the referencing department, it seems to be even more serious.

It's no longer just about how to move forward with the property - it's about an LA who appears to have acted unlawfully in all sorts of ways.

It goes without saying that we will be doing all of the above - but there is a whole other issue to deal with now.

[Richlist]

I didn't miss the point you made earlier. I think your agents may have acted badly and you should follow it up but, its not going to change your situation with your property or the tenants who have now moved out.

The issue is one of priorities.....are they:-

* Get your property back so you can relet it ?

* Find new tenants ASAP ?

* Get the original tenants to pay the rent for the remainder of the AST ?

* Take your agents to court cos they have not acted in your best interests ?

I think you need to separate some of these issues and my previous post still applies:

* Get tenants to sign a surrender doc.

* Ditch your agent.

* Get new agents.

* Find new tenants either yourself or thru the new agent.

[chickpea]

The tenants who have moved out had already agreed to pay the rent until February, as they have done, and hand the property back - they have been contacted and I'm waiting to hear back from them personally.

The agent is being dumped on Monday.

We have a new agent in mind - I have already spoken to them but need to do some more research to make sure they are good.

New tenants - see above.

When I have longer than 30 seconds, I will post the full details of what has happened - I promise it will make a good, if long, read.