New Boiler Installation.

[Melboy]

This will probably send shiver's down RL's back

I too thought like RL that my 20 year old floor standing boiler would last for ever with regular servicing etc. but on the last servicing visit from my Son 2 weeks ago he said to me that I should really consider replacing it now as it was coming to it's end of useful life. My gas bill for the last quarter was huge even taking into account the extended cold spell of weather.

So he has been here for the last 3 days undertaking a major boiler replacement. I am taking the opportunity to resite it as well from indoors into my garage to give me another suitable cupboard space indoors and to add another radiator as well.

He is installing the latest Worcester/ Bosch, all singing and dancing, with their 6 year no quibble guarantee and I am not too worried about that as the Worcester repair man lives in my Village and he is well known to me and my Son of course. My Son is a registered Worcester company Installer anyway.

Not sure how to add photo's on this particular website?????

[Richlist]

So,

* Are you looking for sympathy & understanding or

* Are you just boasting about spending a few thousand pounds unnecessarily ?

We all know that 20 year old boilers will last at least twice that long.

[Mortitia]

I am sure will enjoy the economy of fuel Mel. I have neighbour who thinks like RL and has bought in plenty of spares on the instruction of her plumber to keep ancient heap going!

[Chestnut]

Mel,

Congratulations on your new boiler!

I have recently expressed my views on other threads about unnecessary changes and offered 20-25 year amortization calc on likely gas savings - though with a tame installer it's probably (much) less for you!

I renewed similarly a few years ago because of wish to resite. I didn't think an old cast iron boiler would move very well and anyway to big for new site. With resiting there is labour charge whether new or old - so amortization not so relevant.

With Worcester Bosch, if you have Z plan circuit with necessary over-run by-pass between motor valves, check you have proper relief valve installed. My local W-B man insisted installer's partially (but continuously) open service ball valve was changed to proper one so as not to void boiler warranty. I guess your son would know this.

[Richlist]

Whats the efficiency of a new Worcester/ Bosch ?

I'd like to compare it to my 1989 installed wall mounted, balanced flue, Potterton Netaheat Profile.

Its 89.6% efficient according to last years annual service print out.

[Melboy]

Mel,

Congratulations on your new boiler!

Thank you. House warming party tonight.

I guess your son would know this.

Oh! Yus! He is is a Worcester/Bosch accredited installer.

RL.....Looking to answer your question.

[Mrs Tara Plumbing]

M.

Good luck with the new boiler - it will be really interesting to here how your gas bills compare in 12 months time.

I expect your son has advised you that if your rads are old it is a good idea to replace them too, but perhaps your rads aren't as old as your old boiler.

In a nut shell modern rads - and the best mordern rads have a very different design to old rads so the can give off a lot more heat from the same foot print

AND

contain a lot less water.

So your boiler has to heat up less water - so your fuel bills go down.

I would agree with the general point often made that it is not sensible to get rid of a good old boiler just because it is ancient but working well to replace it with something new.

Yes the new boiler should be more efficient and so the fuel bill should go down.

BUT

The typical cost of a new boiler installation could be £2,000-£3,000 so the saving in fuel needs to be considerable!

You do need to get a good relationship with a heating engineer who will give you good advice on when to repair and when to replace.

I have seen in other thread on this forum that people are worried about the lifespan of modern boilers.

In general:

We would still expect modern boilers to last 12 -15 years,and 5 to 7 year warrantes are common.

Condensing boilers have been typical in Europe for decades, it is not new technology.

[Melboy]

Worcester Bosch guarantee is currently 5 years parts and labour.

6 years if installed by an WB acredited installer with the option of purchasing the 7th year for an extra £40 which I have done so.

My rads are fairly new ranging from 5 years to present day.

[Richlist]

Hi.....its Mr Cynical here.......So using your figures of £2000 - £3000 installation cost and a life expectancy of 12-15 years, that means the customer......lets call him Billy Bob...... needs to save between £133 - £250 per year on running costs to break even.

Hardly a persuasive argument....is it ?

I suspect the 12 - 15 year life expectancy is somewhat optimistic which means the savings are likely to need to be much higher to warrant the expenditure.

Basing calculations on say, an 8 year life expectancy then Billy Bob would need to be saving £250 - £375 per year to break even !!

[Mrs Tara Plumbing]

RL.

12-15 years is the average lifespan or expected normal lifespan, not the best case scenario.

There are various "official" sources for this.

You will of course be able to find examples where boilers were replaced after only 6-7 years and some that last more than 15.

In general poor lifespan would suggest poor quality installation - and there a whole load of things that could be wrong and badly effect the lifespan of the boiler.

Or poor quality product.

The maths formula also need to take into account the cost or replacement parts and repairs associated with either keeping the old beast running or replacing it with new.

Of course this is really unpredictable.

If you have some "plan" in place then you know the costs.

Whilst under warranty for a new boiler you know the only cost is an annual service.

[Mrs Tara Plumbing]

Can I just add,

I here rumours that some cheap brands of boiler are associated 6-7 years but this is something I don't really know about.

I would expect most Baxi, and Worcester and Vaillant and various other boilers installed 11 years ago to still be in place today.

[Richlist]

12-15 years is the average lifespan or expected normal lifespan, not the best case scenario.

I wasn't looking for the best case scenario.....I wanted to base the calcs on the average lifespan which you have confirmed as 12-15 years.

You will of course be able to find examples where boilers were replaced after only 6-7 years and some that last more than 15.

Well if the new boiler fails at 6-7 years it would make a terrible investment as the installation costs would far outstrip the potential savings on fuel bills.

In general poor lifespan would suggest poor quality installation - and there a whole load of things that could be wrong and badly effect the lifespan of the boiler.

Or poor quality product.

It seems that having a new boiler fitted is now a risky business. Along with the risk of a poor installation or poor quality product there are 'other' things that can go badly wrong and that affect its lifespan.

The maths formula also need to take into account the cost or replacement parts and repairs associated with either keeping the old beast running or replacing it with new.

I agree but you overstate the case. My boiler has had X3 repairs totalling £450 in 24 years........so I can't complain about repair costs that average out at less than £20 per year.

Of course this is really unpredictable.

Obviously .......but then so are all calculations based on average life expectancy.

Whilst under warranty for a new boiler you know the only cost is an annual service.

With a new boiler an annual service is mandatory for the warranty to be valid. With an old boiler one can often dispense with an annual service as I have done on many occasions in the last 24 years.

I'm happy to be persauded that a new boiler is cost effective........its just that nobody has managed to provide a compelling argument to justify its replacement.

[Grampa]

Get a good old fashioned back boiler and a aga cooker. Heating and hot water sorted

[Grampa]

Thank you. House warming party tonight.

Mel you could of given a bit more notice

[Melboy]

Sometimes irrespective of the discussion of whether you save money on a new installation or not that decision is possibly taken away from you, generally speaking for the older floor standing boiler like I had it has a cast iron heat exchanger which was beginning to look a bit dodgy and weeping on the seams yes you can buy a sealer but this is a temporary fix really and when they go defective that is normally IT for the boiler ,unless you want to spend £400 plus on a replacement heat exchanger if indeed you can get hold of one for your make of boiler and more to the point find a heating engineer willing to do the job.

My boiler was knackered! Poor heat distribution flaming yellow instead of blue. No adjustment left to cure this on the gas valve and the boiler flue was sooting up heavily to the point that that the CO monitor was giving out the occasional bleep. Pilot light going out quite often due to back door draughts and the pilot light itself is consuming gas 24/7 which costs money.

I am very happy with what I have done and if I sell my property on it is a good selling point to any buyer knowing they have a 2013 heating and hot water upgraded system still under guarantee. I have put in many a new system boiler or full central heating in my renovated properties and I know for a fact this has helped greatly to sell a property on.

I look apon it as changing my Ford Escort car for a smart new drive.

[Chestnut]

To answer RL's efficiency question my new-ish 4 year old W-B condensing boiler was last measured in 2011 at 90.1% - it's catalogue SEDBUK value (2009) is also 90.1%. It looks good and with barely warm exhaust it can't be wasting much heat to outside.

On another thread I calculated that 10% improvement in gas use efficiency would save roughly £100 per year on gas at current tariffs.

On same basis RL's trusty Neataheat at 89.6% would perhaps only save about £10 per year of gas if changed - about 200 years to amortise just one change (but actually about 15 new boiler changes from Mrs Tara P!) - which makes RL's point quite adequately.

I had a Neataheat for over 20 years. It's outlet used to warm open car port and occasionally neighbour's garden. Changed because I was resiting boiler in different place - it wouldn't fit new space - weeping at back - cost of re-installing at least as much as new one - and I couldn't possibly bring myself to ask installer for his opinion (two short words I guess)!!

Annual gas usage has dropped by around 5 - 10% after change but also weather dependant, of course. A way to check heating performance and costs against local weather is to register with www.iMeasure.org.uk - I'm using this now for a bit of nerdy fun.

[Richlist]

So there we have it ......stay with 89.6 % efficiency OR spend £2000/£3000 and get 90.1% efficiency.

89.6 % vs 90.1%.........bit of a no brainer really isn't it ?

I realise that some people change boilers because of property renovation/ redesign/ need to resite etc etc and these are perfectly logical reasons to change BUT I know many who are ripping out OK boilers and replacing them unnecessarily. I can only assume they must have no brain &/or have fallen for the hard sell.......

Perhaps this will be the next misselling scandal !!!

[Melboy]

I still have a very serviceable boiler in one of my rented properties that was installed in 1986 from new build.

Just a new gas valve last year £200 fitted inc. service and landlord's cert.

Not bad 27 years old and my Son has said to leave it as it passes all the landlord safety checks and is efficient for the size of the property.

[Mrs Tara Plumbing]

RL.

I am agreeing with you.

My business does install new boilers, but my colleagues and many other gas installers would not suggest you replace a good old boiler unless it was beyond economic repair.

And would broadly agree with you on the figures. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands and possible save a tenner!

I dare say there are a few hard sellers desperate for work - as in all walks of life.

But on the whole there is plenty of work for plumbers that you don't need to be frightened of them beating a path to your door and fighting over who will get to rip out your boiler when you are not looking!

[Richlist]

there is plenty of work for plumbers that you don't need to be frightened of them

I only fear 2 things......God & the unknown......plumbers don't qualify for either.